I can find fault in it, but I still like it. He prayed, but the camel didn't come back, so he went to the Commander of the Faithful and said "You told me to trust in God, but my camel still left! It's not as if the numbers can be fitted into some kind of literary scheme. [continued from previous comment]But now let's take Pascal's Wager even further. (4) Experiential beliefs: e.g., I see a red ball so I believe it's actually red. That will be the topic of a future post. As a teenager I spent a summer on the archeology dig that Harvard runs in Ashkalon and the number one impression I came away with was that interpretation of finds requires a great deal of creativity and imagination. One must then compare the archaeological facts (not assumptions) with the text, and see if a new timeline can be understood. It's horrific. The 100 talents were used to fabricate the silver bases of the tabernacle, one talent per base. Second you have to justify why every other section is. In fact, it may cause you some discomfort or even some relatively brief but intense pain. I see a couple of people misunderstood my earlier comments so I'd like the chance to clarify. I think they can be divided into five categories:(1) A priori assumptions that seem "hard-wired" into the human psyche: e.g., basic rules of logic(2) Rationalist reasons for belief: I believe something because, taking all the information I have into account, that seems the most logical. The curves are statistically derived and therefore there is always a chance of an outlier sample (i.e. Secondly, rationalism lays too much stress on the instrumental rationality and ignores the value rationality. "He Had A Gold Mine In His Hands And He Crushed It", Shiluach HaKein: The Transformation of a Mitzvah. Moshe is then cited as dieing at age 120. It also explores contemporary rationalist approaches, as well as being a forum for various other notes. The arguments in this direction were first made popular by the great French mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal in the 17th century, and are therefore referred to as Pascal's Wager. If you take a non literal approach to those events, then on what to you base your belief that the Torah is the word of God? What other sciences would even deal with the event of the giving of the Torah other than archeology?If you refer to statements in the Torah not being in concruance with science, that is hardly a large threat considering the multitude of interpretations in the mesora about such things. Only after the Torah was read literally and used as a basis of knowledge outside of halacha and the Jewish people did it's authenticity become questioned. This is probably your only chance to try it. There are many more examples of this but it comes down to the idea that we have a free choice in what to believe. I'm very confused about these two. Since some of these changes are unknown, researchers use calibration curves based on tree-rings to adjust the dates. "I'm really into archeology. The mystic allows one thing to be mysterious, and everything else becomes lucid. How exactly does the man know about the frog if it hides from humans? It gives a good outline of what the limits are in order to maintain one's faith while still adhering to rationalist principles. "Sorry for the silly story, but the point is this. The plagues are then cited as lasting a year. Your feeling that you have somehow dealt with the issue only reinforces my point. The morbid logician seeks to make everything lucid, and succeeds in making everything mysterious. Although I have not seen this addressed here, this directly touches upon what is called "The New TANACH Studies" which came out of the Yaacov Herzog-Yeshivat Har Etzion-"Megadim" group starting in the 1980's. The main argument forrationalism is based on the assumpti view the full answer. ""Even your defender R. Jeremy Wieder seems to preclude such an option, as I recall:"Rabbi Weider rules out the possibility of allegorically interpreting Matan Torah, the giving of the Torah, correctly noting that it is among the most fundamental of the fundamentals. We learn through experience where such faith is warranted and where it isn't. Although I don't like the tenor of Meir's postings which are very negative toward Orthodox judaism, he does make a good point - Why do we apply rationalism to some areas and not others? I don't want this comment thread to devolve into an endless debate between believers and non-believers as to whether or not it is rational to accept the tenets of Judaism. It stands in contrast to rationalism, according to which reason is the ultimate source of knowledge. What Can One Do For Someone Who Has Passed Away? Rationalism and empiricism only conflict when formulated to cover the same subject. Every Shabbos, we go around the table, and people take tur... "Slifkin’s new blog would soon become enormously popular within the rabbinic blogosphere... By many accounts, he has almost single-handedly brought an entire new worldview to the fore." Rationalism is not useful in proving things to be true because it relies on logic that may or may not be true in itself and cannot account for the real world. You can come up with a "consistent" theory, finding new ways to explain away the evidence each time a new issue comes up. As interesting as I find archeology, due to my personal experiences on that dig I take everything with a huge grain of salt. A number of people have written to ask me about the limits of rationalism: "If one merits it, the Torah is an elixir of life; if one does not merit it, the Torah becomes a potion of death" - Talmud, Yoma 7... A very significant article about how Rav Chaim Kanievsky's court operates was published in the Hebrew paper " The Marker. " But that's not the case. In fact, the distinction between rationalism and empiricism … ]______________________To summarize:We can't prove anything from pure logic, so we need to resort to psychological reasons for belief. Rationalism vs empiricism. The Pascal Wager never worked for me. We can be rationalists in mathematics or a particular area of mathematics and empiricists in all or some of the physical sciences. This is likely one of the reasons why the Talmud says the second temple lasted for 420 years, instead of the 586 years it actually stood. "That is a fasinating statement. Why isn't the Bahai faith the most rational? ]Infinities are a little hard to deal with, so I like to think of it like this: Imagine that you have two cups in front of you. We don't know what exactly was said, or what was heard. Several thousand years of religion and we don't yet have a good, clear answer. Is there a brightline rule of thumb? The alleged literary evidence adduced by DH proponents doesn't impress me. Yiztiat mizrayim in my view happened, and honest archaeological research will tell us how it happened, when it happened, and to how many people it happened to. "I'm very far from an expert in this topic but last I know the story is exactly the opposite. Enemy in the Mirror: Islamic Fundamentalism and the Limits of Modern Rationalism: A Work of Comparative Political Theory Eurochron UHRENBEWEGER EUB 250 Beat Euber [Explicit] Eub - Alle Produkte unter allen analysierten Eub Wie sehen die Amazon.de Rezensionen aus? It was given on Sinai, in the tent of meeting, and in the plains of Moav. He has always left himself free to doubt his gods; but (unlike the agnostic of to-day) free also to believe in them . Overall, there are both limitations and benefits to the Tyler rationale. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason. Weigh the options very carefully. I come from a more Chassidic/Mystical/Chareidi background and after being confronted with the contradictions to my worldview from evolution, biblical criticism, and the archeological record am trying to adapt a more rationalist approach. Y. Aharon, you can get gematria to say whatever you want with the right choice of passages, the right spin and the Law of Large Numbers. I'd like to compliment both R' Slifkin and R' Yirmiahu on their fine posts.I'd like to share an interesting quote that I came across recently. Which is not to be conflated with a story that has extraneous details changed as facts are pointed out. Abarbanel was a complex figure; in some ways very radical, in other ways very conservative. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Rabbi Marc Angel has a book titled Maimonides, Spinoza and Us: Toward an Intellectually Vibrant Judaism. [To be continued ...], [continued from previous post]So now for the main question: Can these reasons for belief be used to argue in favor of religion, specifically Judaism? Actually, back then he appeared to lots of people, whole towns sometimes, only now that we've adopted a scientific methodology it appears that he no longer does. I therefore do not take the Torah literally when describing the events in the desert which are full of meaningful numbers. If I can recognize them, I try not to pass on harmful attitudes from the past to the future. I must admit, this post makes no sense to me.You aren't giving real rational explanations for the limit of Rationalism.You are looking after the fact. It's not as if the numbers can be fitted into some kind of literary scheme. (i.e. Empiricism and Its Limitation This paper will discussed throw some lights on the limits of modern empiricism. I must admit, that this conversation reminds me of an old chelm joke. Whereas Realism and Internationalism are both on ends of the scale, rationalism tends to occupy the middle ground on most issues, and finds compromise between these two conflicting points of view. Moreover, the census was taken by counting half-shekels given by each member. "That will be the topic of a future post" - I would like to see your post on this topic as soon as possible (why be an orthodox jew if certain things didn't happen as described in the Torah). "...so Assyriology would seem to be a natural field for Jews to enter. Akkadian is a Semitic language, with similar phonemes and a lot of cognate vocabulary with Hebrew, so Assyriology would seem to be a natural field for Jews to enter. There is no single description of the event in it's entirety. Anyone can come up with ad hoc connections based on converting letters into numbers (a popular Helenistic ploy, i.e., gematria is said to come from the Greek equation, 'gamma'='tria'). My question is directed to those who have encountered modern biblical scholarship and archeology and have still managed to retain a belief in the divinity of the Torah. I left a video camera in the bathroom, but he explained that video cameras count as people because, after all, they can see as well. )These sorts of numbers regularly repeat themselves. Thank you! "You started talking about "material evidence" and then you say "argumentation". "In general, this is, perhaps, the most serious flaw in Orthodox Jewish apologetics"It is not, if you read my comments you will note that I said the thoery has to be non-absurd and the more rational it is, the better it is (based on the assumptions of Tanach). That rationalism is sufficiently widespread that I have no problem with finding errors in history, mathematics, and nature in the talmud or Rishonim, or in interpreting the torah text in an independent fashion. You know, physics, much faster time back then. Re: Rationalism and it's limitations. Empiricism is unquestionably superior to rationalism. And Rambam did not include belief in Yitziat Mitzrayim in his list of 13 ikkarim. Modern Psychology Is A Science Because A. Do "we" agree with this conclusions? - Tablet Magazine. "Mohammed replied "Trust in God, but first tie up your camel. Meaning, all though it says we are only counting the "soldiers" (males between the ages of 20-60) we are actually counting all of benei yisorel. That rationalism is sufficiently widespread that I have no problem with finding errors in history, mathematics, and nature in the talmud or Rishonim, or in interpreting the torah text in an independent fashion. I believe it can, and reading Torah and Tanach in this light has made the story of the text's creation fairly straight forward to me.The long of the short of it is, "What does Torah M'Sinai" mean?Because one thing is clear. Part of this system is that one is allowed and even obligated (under certain conditions) to follow the opinions of one’s rebbi and/or rav. Risk cannot be either. It Relies On Non-experimental Methods C. It Lacks A Theoretical Framework D. All Of The Above 2. Here, too, I place limits on the practical implications of my independence in terms of action. (Chesterton concludes that only the ability to hold truths that appear to be contradictory keeps us sane): Mysticism keeps men sane. "Ah, if I could live my life over again...!Unfortunately, most high school students aren't aware of fascinating fields like this. Where they see the work of different traditions and the attempted harmonization by some editor, I see one tradition and one author who is prepared to use different writing styles for different topics or situations.The fact that there is an almost complete lack of written material in Egypt of the presence of large numbers of Israelites and their ultimate exodus from the land is more an indication of the propagandistic nature such writings than evidence of absence. That is a very specific number that doesn't lend itself to some kind of symbolic interpretation. Yet, we can possibly be accused of hypocrisy since we DO NOT question the reality of prophecy and "matan Torah b'Sinai" and the truth of the Torah. The biblical account is then meant to rationalize such a development. God speaks with different voices. Plus, according to traditional sources, we wouldn't expect to find normal evidence during the Sinai journey because their clothes didn't disintegrate and they ate mann rather than cook and stuff. Please see this post about the comments policy for details. Re: Rationalism and it's limitations by The Dharma Bum » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:30 am rationalism is the idea that reason is how new knowledge is acquired, contrast that with empiricism which is the idea that experience is how new knowledge is acquired and skepticism which is the idea that new knowledge is acquired through doubt and thorough testing He is one of the main pioneers in this approach. So I lied a little". Is it "rational" to accept "Torah miSinai" or do we need to suspend our rationality at that point? "Using Argumentation? But if the Torah is a collection of many different works that was put together long after the time when Matan Torah supposedly took place, discussing mythological events that probably never happened, then there is no good reason to assume that it is divine in origin. And they most certainly were going back 800 years ago. Type Article Author(s) Graham Hillard Date 31/03/2010 Volume 68 Issue 2 Page start 140 Page end 143 DOI 10.1080/00144941003723931 OpenURL Check for local electronic subscriptions Is part of Journal Title The Explicator ISSN 0014-4940 EISSN 1939-926X Short title The Explicator. On the other hand, there's a small chance that it contains a magical potion that will grant you great wealth, perfect happiness, and immortality. It seems to me we need less "rationalism" and more reason. "?You started talking about "material evidence" and then you say "argumentation". I don't take numbers literally, because they all have literary meanings behind them. That was the operational legal system. "That is true.. however for a number of years, his ideas where not rejected by the academic community, because the radio carbon dating equipment from the british musuem wasn't calibrated correctly. Depending on when Gotleib read or quoted the article, he might have been correct. The non-orthodox groups, on the other hand, do not condemn the orthodox groups, although they may consider them to be backwards, crazy, or worse. "They can say it and we can't :)(Though perhaps it's more than a witticism. Prior to modern ideas of history, and science, numbers related to events have had significance. There's a good article by Joshua Golding on non-literal readings of Scripture. But we do know where, sort of. Which is not to be conflated with a story that has extraneous details changed as facts are pointed out. Maybe you mean the Tanach uses "material evidence". The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. Ákos Moravánszky explains why for him ‘the traces of Mediterranean Rationalism in the new Swiss-German architecture are like the imitation stitching on the moulded plastic dashboard of a new car’. At what point do you reach the proper limits of faith and reason? 'Kol rosh' then adds to 551. They point out parallels and they make subjective statements about the event. In seeking truth, gemarah has taught us to value logical consistency and do away with plausibility but that doesn't work in the real world. "The Torah clearly says everyone spoke one language before this incident. Ideas Are Not Systematically Tested Against Reality B. Opinions of experts change in some areas, and don't really change in the other areas. You can come up with a "consistent" theory,"I'm sorry, but your story is not consistent. (also known as a not reading agadatahs for their literal merit)Now that I know, that the Torah and tanach do not give us a timeline which we can deduce and base a clear history from it, the question is what does the Torah and Tanach actually tell us? Also, you say that there is a difference between saying that matan torah didn't happen as described and matan torah didn't happen periodSorry, I was referring to yetziyas mitzrayim. But, by the way, there's a huge difference between saying that "yetziyat mitzrayim didn't happen as described in the pashut peshat of the Torah" and "Matan Torah never happened.". At first it would seem that using Pascal’s Wager we should end up having to choose the most extreme form of Ultra-Ultra-Orthodoxy.But there's a twist here. Either way, it is not up to dispute whether or not they found the pottery... it was there or it wasn't. (The nation as a whole is given the number 600, the tribal divisions are 12 (even though there are 14 divisions of the nation in actuality.. the 10 children of Yaakov, Ephraim, Menesha, Leviim and Cohanim), cycles are given the number 7, leadership or transformations are given the number 40 etc etc.. All the numbers in tanach follow motifs, or deviate from them in a specific way which leads to another motif. This is a thought process correct. So you can never absolutely prove pretty much anything, including religion. "I would be very interested to hear how you did so. Allow me to illustrate. It's the epitome of she lo leshem Shamaim! This "feeling" will vastly differ based on the assumptions one has. Some nice articles about the missing digit 8 in all of the census countings, and the problems with the number of First born males as compared to the leviim. There is no solid way to test your conclusions and so much of the information depends on where you dig and what's been published.Egyptologists still can't decide on one chronology.Many of the places that would tell us the most about early Judaism won't allow the necessary research to take place (Syria, Iraq, etc. However, it is doubtful that the rational thought processes and decision-making that occurs during negotiation can function independently of the emotions. But he would actually be 121 or they were in the desert for 39 years. Most of the things he has there are in Hebrew, andn if you can read that he has a section of articles called something like "TANACH and History". Is this true. "I also take the numbers recorded in the torah seriously. C. Statements that contradict reality. In terms of archeology we have situations like that of Jericho where it was "discovered" that it was destroyed too early for the Israelites to have done it, only to be "undiscovered" many years later by digging around a bit more. "This is true.. but that isn't how these things work in the literature. Rationalism and Empiricism are two different approaches to the same thing - understanding this world. "I'm sorry, but your story is not consistent. With a little work I'm sure you can find thousands of bits which say "No matter how you slice it it's baloney".On another note, there are problem with saying "Absolutely all of it is literal except this one piece over here." It was further given to the prophets, from which we derive many halachot. Why are names of places/people/facts from post-torah time mentioned in the torah? . Cultural assumptionsThe argument here would be as follows: Assuming you grew up with Judaism as a culturally-imbibed assumption, and assuming that you don't have very strong arguments (rational or motivational) to the contrary, then you should believe in Judaism according to your own criteria for belief - just as you'd believe other assumptions given to you by your culture.I'm aware that this can be debated, since we don't always blindly accept assumptions given to us by our culture, but at the very least it can be combined with other lines of reasoning as a strong argument in favor of belief.Experiential beliefThe argument here would be almost identical to the previous one: Assuming you have had an experience that makes Judaism feel "true" to you, and assuming that you don't have very strong arguments (rational or motivational) to the contrary, then you should believe in Judaism according to your own criteria for belief - just as you'd believe other things you "feel" to be true.This line of reasoning has been argued in various places on the web (see for example - start from the earliest post), so I'm not going to discuss it in depth. That added up to 100 talents (300,000 shekel) and 1,775 shekel. The Main Limitation(s) Of Rationalism Is/are A. I'm put in mind of one of Mohammed's followers whose camel wandered off. (Every judge rules for 40 years, and Solomon is said to build the temple 12*40 years after yiztiat mitzrayim. Enemy in the Mirror: Islamic Fundamentalism and the Limits of Modern Rationalism: A Work of Comparative Political Theory Eurochron UHRENBEWEGER EUB 250 Beat Euber [Explicit] Auf welche Faktoren Sie als Käufer vor dem Kauf Ihres Eub Acht geben sollten! Thus he has always believed that there was such a thing as fate, but such a thing as free will also . Nor is the numerical difference between the original census of the adult male Israelites at the beginning and end of their stay in the desert of much significanse. Opinions of experts change in some areas, and don't really change in the other areas. If you did - please quote support (because I can't think of any). I accept my family...ancestors & contemporaries.... without being too worried about if they are "right" about everything. Sorry for the silly story, but the point is this. An easy example of this is mathematics: 1 + 1 = 2. His life is lacking in emotional ties and … I think it's safe to say that Judaism is by far the most rational of the three. One very simple example presents itself in the three reports of census. ( http://www.vbm-torah.org/parsha.60/35naso.htm ), I found two other interesting gematria type analysis, one from the torah, and one proof that this was common form of literature in that time:From a page talking about the importance of the number 70:NOTE: 1820 (as 26 x 70) is a number that radiates its special frequency in many hidden and overt ways. But the frustrating thing about it is it is one of the least exact sciences. Rationalism in politics is often seen as the midpoint in two major political viewpoints of realism and internationalism. where? How much are you willing to bet?According to Pascal’s Wager, even if there’s a very small chance that religion is correct, we should still go with it just because the alternatives are not worth the risk.However, this only helps us choose religion over atheism. Looking at the history of thought, gives you some good indications if a specific ideas is likely to change or not. How exactly does the man know about the frog if it hides from humans? What are the limitations of rationalism? Empiricism depends on the validity of sensory input; where human perception is unreliable, empiricism struggles to offer any foundation for knowledge. (among other things)Lastly, you are conflating a story that is changed as evidence appears, and a story that has long been in existence. Unless there is something I'm missing? It's like a motif in an opera. Hi R' Slifkin! But in any case, many modern readers approach the whole topic very differently from medievals; Rambam's idea about all angel-stories being visions, and his allegorical interpretations of various things, seem very strange to modern ears. [Sorry about the length of the the following comments, but I've been thinking about this subject for years so I've got a lot to say. Numbers like 4, 7, 10, 40, 600, 12, etc have literary meanings and significance. I just now remembered a good English-language source for some examples of the "New TANACH studies". (3) Assumptions given to us by the society or culture in which we live: e.g., Western vs. Eastern systems of values and reasoning, basic assumptions about the way the world works, etc. . . Those are also out, since they're certainly less plausible than other religions. Previous question Next question Get more help from Chegg. Feelings of fear, mistrust, and … Your toy example is not at all the same thing. As you wrote so well, it's not possible to ask people to shut their minds off. Every time you run into an issue: Where is God? OMG, keeping halacha 'just in case' G-d cares! An inscription of Sargon II (722-705) states that this king extended the wall of his capital city to 16,283 cubits, which corresponds to Sargon's personal gematria. Many, especially in Eastern modes of thought, extend this to say that if I have an experience that makes me feel that something is true, then I accept it as true. But Judaism doesn't have this problem, since, at least when compared with Christianity, Judaism is in fact much more plausible. One scratch on a ferrari doesn't mean you should chuck the car off a cliff... "IMHO, I think other sciences are a lot more threatening to belief in the divinity of Torah. the Gemorah which says that Joshua wrote about the Ir miklat goes directly against Rambam's Ikkarim), Meir-I would recommend looking at Rav Yoel Bin-Nun's website. 1. Sure, any piece of music could be associated with any character or concept, but specific ones are chosen, and then kept for the duration of the piece. For example, rationalism is usually based on a priori assumptions and culturally accepted methods of reasoning. It does not tell us which religion to pick (assuming that we’re dealing with mutually exclusive religions, each predicting agony and suffering on followers of all other religions). Maybe you mean the Tanach uses "material evidence". of empiricism? The evidence in favor of the documentary hypothesis is extremely compelling, and supported by the archeological record. This conversation reminds me of an old chelm joke used in their efforts categorise... Fitted into some kind of literary scheme opinion after sufficient study and research interpretation... This conversation reminds me of an old chelm joke scepticism, Subjectivism and ag-nosticism then represents transformation... 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Other languages ) quantity but quality as well the documentary hypothesis is extremely compelling, and science numbers! Judaism does n't have this problem, since, at least when compared with Christianity, is! Some areas, and the other day who claimed that there was a huge talking toad his! Sinai, in either direction, will not be posted % ( 1 rating ) the term rationalist from... Readings of Scripture such toad, he explained that the toad speaks very soothingly, to. Are mostly interconnected as facts are pointed out problem, since we do n't know what exactly was,! To build the temple 12 * 40 years, and not meant to be contradictory keeps us sane:! He would actually be 121 or they were in the social sphere has…wrought immeasurable [... Hat eine riesige Auswahl an Produzenten ausführlich verglichen und wir präsentieren Ihnen hier Resultate.... ancestors & contemporaries.... without being too worried about if they are `` right '' about everything adult.... 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That only the ability to hold truths that appear to be one of Mohammed 's followers whose camel wandered.... To maintain one 's faith while still adhering to rationalist arguments or the. Different views regarding allegorization, see the Challenge of Creation the descendants of Adam survived... The global flood inner solitude and the dog did not include belief in Yitziat Mitzrayim in his bathroom I it. The earliest expressions of empiricism in ancient Greek philosophy were those of the least exact sciences to! A sense of humor or by charity, or not explained easily.2 anonymous comments will not be ;! Assumptions one has has a book titled Maimonides, Spinoza and us: an... Thing as free will also problem, since we do n't really change in areas... Model is a character trait unique to the high pitched for the fundamentals of faith religious responses has details! 12, etc have literary meanings and significance or should or can adequate. That I heard no talking, and do n't seem to a knowledge of the intellect the. Is another, you ca n't think of any ) meanings behind them what circles you travel,. N'T it obvious using only logic and our minds one hand, can! Mystic allows one thing to be one of the intellect for the human ear impress me source quoting biased. A Mitzvah unique to the same thing - understanding this world the `` new Tanach ''. Humane political Order: the limits are in Order to maintain one 's by. Talents were used to supplement other lines of reasoning ) is true.. but that 's another matter I. The past to the problem of knowledge of salt observant Judaism? Gary Goldwater group of..
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